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#41 joonian

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Posted 25 November 2011 - 03:44 PM

Did anyone read Manton's account of his visit to Edward Green in Northampton?

One of the most interesting things I learned from that was that Green shoes today are far better than anything else they've put out in the last 20 years. Manton describes how Green's lasts, uppers and general styling and workmanship have improved and attained a level of quality in the last few years than at any time in its recent history. I guess it's an inversion of the 'things get better with age' maxim that many style geeks may subscribe to. Great brands generally decline over time, after all. See Florsheim or any of the American makers, and recently, some of the English ones too.

That's not to say the same necessarily applies to C&J, of course, but that thread did get me thinking about the quality of a vintage offering compared to a contemporary one.

Here's the thread: http://www.styleforu...ead.php?t=59653

#42 kotmj

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Posted 25 November 2011 - 05:38 PM

It is likely that Green makes better shoes than before. Even A&S makes better suits today than before.

However, it is interesting to see that they, too, use fabric tape in the sole like everyone else nowadays. I used to be on a shoe forum and the shoemakers there said this is a bad cost-cutting developement that makes the shoe structurally weaker. The Goodyear welt as originally done requires stitching the insole to the welt. Now, it is glued on via the fabric tape. The adoption of the fabric tape seems to have come about in the 90s.

I don't think its a big deal but thought I'd mention this since I found such a nice pic of the fabric tape in Manton's post.
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#43 kotmj

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Posted 25 November 2011 - 06:48 PM

I found some illustrations of the different variations of make in shoes. This is the hand-sewn make. Notice that the welt is secured to the insole via stitches.
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This is the original Goodyear make. It is a variation of the hand-sewn version. The welt is still secured to the insole by means of machine-stitches.
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And this is the current make of almost all English shoemakers. The welt is sewn to a tape, and the tape is in turn secured to the insole via glue. The insole is not sewn.
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Apart from the simplicity of gluing instead of sewing, the last method of make allows the use of thinner insoles, because the insole no longer needs to be cut and shaped to allow the sewing.

#44 kotmj

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Posted 25 November 2011 - 07:15 PM

Modern shoemakers also save costs by using a leather fiberboard for the insole instead of a piece of real leather. This is a picture from "Posh", an independent German shoemaker comparing the leather composite insole of a C&J Handgrade to a piece of Rendenbach leather (the real thing originally used). You can see a bit of the fabric tape at the bottom of the insole.

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#45 joonian

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Posted 26 November 2011 - 04:21 AM

So English 'Goodyear welted' shoes today are not actually Goodyear welted, then? The term surely means that the insole and welt are stitched together? But now if the insole isn't stitched at all, then is it still Goodyear welted?

#46 joonian

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Posted 26 November 2011 - 03:48 PM

PSA on Crockett and Jones loafers and monkstrap, starting at USD220. I'm not sure if they are firsts or seconds.

Not much of a PSA for us in Malaysia actually, since it will be only slightly cheaper than P Lal after shipping. But Threedifferent regularly has great prices on a variety of stuff, so it's worth checking back.

BTW, does anyone know if P Lal is able to give good fitting advice for the various C&J lasts?

http://www.styleforu...70#post_4982200

#47 kotmj

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 01:15 AM

Fantastic price on that monkstrap.

#48 terrorsquad

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 08:45 PM

Since I'll be in Singapore next weekend, I'm thinking of getting this pair from ed e tal:

http://edetal.sg/shop/the-shenton.html

The price is quite reasonable.What are your thoughts on this?


#49 joonian

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 11:47 PM

I've seen the shoes at the launch and I like the penny loafers best. I feel like Ed's new lasts will bring out the elegance in more formal styles like an oxford. I'm sure we will see more and better designs from Ed Et Al in the near future.

#50 terrorsquad

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 12:40 AM

Joonian, what's your opinion on the quality since you've seen the shoes up close?do you spending SGD250 on it is better the spending RM699 on a pair of cheaney's at PLAL?

#51 andrew

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 12:54 AM

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The loafers look much better here than on the website. Before I saw this, I had the impression that his lasts are a bit square-ish, because he never takes any top down pictures. Price is attractive!

Edit: Pic is from edetal's tumblr

#52 joonian

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 01:00 AM

@Terror: I feel his current lasts work well for casual styles like the pennies. I tried them on and they look good on the foot. I am not so sure about the last for lace-ups. I believe he has new lasts available for his mtm work, and some of them look very elegant, with a chiselled toe. The leather is sourced from around the region, and it looks to be of decent quality. Full-grain. I think the price is attractive. I would probably pick the Ed Et Al penny over the Cheaneys at P Lal.

@Andrew very nice! Almost copped a pair myself :)

#53 Zinzan

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 01:49 PM

Do you guys know where to get those invisible socks like the one Ed et al penny loafers picture?

#54 kotmj

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 02:52 PM

They look like my pair of Falkes

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#55 geno

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 04:21 PM

I have a pair of Ed Et Al monkstraps. they look better in real life than the stock photos. Will post some photos as soon as I can.
Fitwise: they sides were pretty narrow, I had to go to my cobbler to stretch it out for me, was much comfortable after stretching.
The shoes are actually made in Vietnam, and the soles could do with a better finishing, some of the edges are still rough. Overall great value for money

#56 kotmj

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 04:38 PM

For some reason I thought they were handmade in Singapore.

#57 joonian

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 06:40 PM

I think the MTM ones are made by Edwin himself in Singapore. Not the RTW ones.

#58 kotmj

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 07:49 PM

So English 'Goodyear welted' shoes today are not actually Goodyear welted, then? The term surely means that the insole and welt are stitched together? But now if the insole isn't stitched at all, then is it still Goodyear welted?

I'm not an authority on shoes at all, so I'll just tell you how I see this.

It's a modified Goodyear welted process. The GY process itself is a cost-saving process that mechanized the handsewing, significantly increasing the output of the shoe producer. The latest iteration with the fabric tape and glue is just a continuation of the process of making shoes more cheaply.

The problem with "heritage" products like shoes and suits is that they have all been superseeded by genuinely modern products so there is not much room for innovation that increases the functionality while reducing costs. All that is left is to reduce costs.

Some unit cost improvements are found in using faster machines, machines that produce less scrap, and in improvents in the supply chain. Some cost improvements are achived through design changes to the shoe itself, even if accompanied by reduced functionality, so long as they are relatively imperceptible to the typical customer.

That's how I see this development.

#59 Zinzan

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 03:07 PM

Thanks Kotmj for the socks.

#60 kotmj

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 07:45 PM

The difference water polishing makes...
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