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Larrainzar.King's untailor and Burgos.worst untailors ever.my masters like to mention them as bad example .scam

 

3000 euros for a fridge carton like squared shoulder with triple width sleeves and hold on, he says he is better than Savile and Naples tailors... :blink::wacko:

 

Worst tailor ever.

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Solid white Arsenal Carlo Riva is available, found on a magazine at not bad at all price.

 

Pm me if interested. ;)


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Hi gents,

 

being relatively new to the world of bespoke.. i have gotten addicted to the comfort of having jackets and trousers being well fitted. the next (should have been the first, but.....) on the list to check off would be to get a good fitted shirt.

 

I have had much bad experience trying to find the perfect fit on a good shirt, buying RTW to take it to an alterations tailor, and also MTM programs that did not turn out with the fit I wanted. I am curious to know, with MTM is it possible to give the tailor a shirt that already fits well and allow him to copy it? (and with further iterations will this allow improvements or is this restricted by the cutters reference to blocks)

 

Best,

Ivan

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Shirt fit is a very personal thing. There is no such thing as the "ideal" shirt fit, one that pleases most people. More so than the jacket, the sort of shirt fit a customer deems perfect varies dramatically from customer to customer. The operative word here is "dramatically".

 

You'd think there must be certain rules in shirt fit which are universal. Like a collar that fits the neck well. Of course the collar must be snug, with maybe 1/2" ease, right? That's what you'd think. Having made more than a dozen shirts for a customer whose collar is 2" too big for his neck, I'm now disabused of this belief. He likes them that way.

 

You'd think a soft, unfused collar would be universally adopted, right? You can't imagine anybody wanting a stiff collar. But there are very many customers who like their collars very stiff because it projects professionalism.

 

Even in 2013 (now almost 2014), I have customers insist I cut them long pointy collars.

 

Long story short, don't expect the tailor to understand what you like. Some people are incredulous that a tailor would not share their opinion on some aspect of shirt fit, as if the whole world does it that way. The whole world doesn't do it that way. In fact there is no consensus in the world how it should be done.

 

I have customers telling me the pocket on the shirt is too small. I have customers telling me they are too big. I have some telling me they are too low. So far nobody has said they are too high up, but its bound to happen some day.

 

What you are looking for is not the perfect shirt fit. What you're looking for is a tailor who can

 

a) iterate to the point that you're very happy with the fit

b ) then deliver that fit consistently, shirt after shirt after shirt

c) where each shirt is sewn to very high standards.

 

A big mistake I see people making is to flit from tailor to tailor in search of the perfect fit. That's the laborious way to do it. The smart way to do it is to carefully pick a tailor on the basis of reproducibility and construction and to work with him until ordering a shirt is just a matter of picking the fabric, since you cannot think of anything to improve on fit-wise.

 

It doesn't take that many iterations. I think about 3 will get most people to fit nirvana. And yes, it is a good idea to start with a shirt that you already quite like, even if RTW.

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Shirt fit is a very personal thing. There is no such thing as the "ideal" shirt fit, one that pleases most people. More so than the jacket, the sort of shirt fit a customer deems perfect varies dramatically from customer to customer. The operative word here is "dramatically".

 

You'd think there must be certain rules in shirt fit which are universal. Like a collar that fits the neck well. Of course the collar must be snug, with maybe 1/2" ease, right? That's what you'd think. Having made more than a dozen shirts for a customer whose collar is 2" too big for his neck, I'm now disabused of this belief. He likes them that way.

 

You'd think a soft, unfused collar would be universally adopted, right? You can't imagine anybody wanting a stiff collar. But there are very many customers who like their collars very stiff because it projects professionalism.

 

Even in 2013 (now almost 2014), I have customers insist I cut them long pointy collars.

 

Long story short, don't expect the tailor to understand what you like. Some people are incredulous that a tailor would not share their opinion on some aspect of shirt fit, as if the whole world does it that way. The whole world doesn't do it that way. In fact there is no consensus in the world how it should be done.

 

I have customers telling me the pocket on the shirt is too small. I have customers telling me they are too big. I have some telling me they are too low. So far nobody has said they are too high up, but its bound to happen some day.

 

What you are looking for is not the perfect shirt fit. What you're looking for is a tailor who can

 

a) iterate to the point that you're very happy with the fit

b ) then deliver that fit consistently, shirt after shirt after shirt

c) where each shirt is sewn to very high standards.

 

A big mistake I see people making is to flit from tailor to tailor in search of the perfect fit. That's the laborious way to do it. The smart way to do it is to carefully pick a tailor on the basis of reproducibility and construction and to work with him until ordering a shirt is just a matter of picking the fabric, since you cannot think of anything to improve on fit-wise.

 

It doesn't take that many iterations. I think about 3 will get most people to fit nirvana. And yes, it is a good idea to start with a shirt that you already quite like, even if RTW.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for your informative post, kotmj.

 

I believe having a tailor to stick with is good, but I have decided to move away from my current tailor after making more than 5 shirts that fit too tightly, and a reluctance to accommodate details I want.

 

So it wouldn't matter if the shirt was bespoke or MTM? Or does this only apply when to bespeak shirts 

 

Best,

navic

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For me, categorizing shirtmaking into "bespoke" or "MTM" is insufficiently nuanced.

 

Let me come up with an ad-hoc categorization now on a Sunday morning with a slight bit of sleep deprivation.

 

1. Simple MTM

The shirt is essentially off a block. Sleeve length, neck circumference, length and a few other measurements are accounted for but not shape of armscye, positioning of neckhole, assymmetrical side seams and non-linear sleeve seams. No influence over ease anywhere in the shirt. The guy who takes your measurements have no idea how a shirt is drafted.

 

2. MTM plus

The guy who takes your measurements knows a thing or two, but is hampered by inflexibility in the workshop. He does everything in Simple MTM, yet can influence ease by writing down on order chit "SUPER slim fit" or "more space over tummy".

 

3. Veteran MTM

An old hand who is highly integrated with the workshop, in particular the cutter. Can influence the pattern quite significantly by writing on order chit "neckhole forwards by 1/2", "6" ease in chest", "1" more in the elbows", "front balance +1"".

 

4. Bespoke with external fulfillment

The guy who takes your measurements is the guy who drafts the pattern. Shirt is sewn by other people. Since he drafts the pattern himself, he can do almost anything.

 

5. Ultimate bespoke

The guy who took your order does everything, from cutting to sewing to finishing.

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For me, categorizing shirtmaking into "bespoke" or "MTM" is insufficiently nuanced.

 

Let me come up with an ad-hoc categorization now on a Sunday morning with a slight bit of sleep deprivation.

 

1. Simple MTM

The shirt is essentially off a block. Sleeve length, neck circumference, length and a few other measurements are accounted for but not shape of armscye, positioning of neckhole, assymmetrical side seams and non-linear sleeve seams. No influence over ease anywhere in the shirt. The guy who takes your measurements have no idea how a shirt is drafted.

 

2. MTM plus

The guy who takes your measurements knows a thing or two, but is hampered by inflexibility in the workshop. He does everything in Simple MTM, yet can influence ease by writing down on order chit "SUPER slim fit" or "more space over tummy".

 

3. Veteran MTM

An old hand who is highly integrated with the workshop, in particular the cutter. Can influence the pattern quite significantly by writing on order chit "neckhole forwards by 1/2", "6" ease in chest", "1" more in the elbows", "front balance +1"".

 

4. Bespoke with external fulfillment

The guy who takes your measurements is the guy who drafts the pattern. Shirt is sewn by other people. Since he drafts the pattern himself, he can do almost anything.

 

5. Ultimate bespoke

The guy who took your order does everything, from cutting to sewing to finishing.

 

 

 

Came across this article by Michael Alden of thelondonlounge... What he wrote makes a lot of sense.

 

*oops I realized I hadn't put the link in

http://dresswithstyle.com/2011/09/28/the-first-serious-step-in-bespoke/

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Wow i am glad i am into the ultimate bespoke as i do everything myself on the shirts.

 

6 friend, if you come to Naples visit me for an ultimate bespoke and for a tour. I will also help you to not fall into the several scammers around. Last time i warned another member but he was scammed on 5 top shirts.

 

Nothing to do on Milan, awful , bad food and expensive place only for fashion victims, bloggers or similars.

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Wow i am glad i am into the ultimate bespoke as i do everything myself on the shirts.

 

6 friend, if you come to Naples visit me for an ultimate bespoke and for a tour. I will also help you to not fall into the several scammers around. Last time i warned another member but he was scammed on 5 top shirts.

 

Nothing to do on Milan, awful , bad food and expensive place only for fashion victims, bloggers or similars.

 

MOP feel free to give us your recommendations so.

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Came across this article by Michael Alden of thelondonlounge... What he wrote makes a lot of sense.

 

*oops I realized I hadn't put the link in

http://dresswithstyle.com/2011/09/28/the-first-serious-step-in-bespoke/

 

Michael Alden is a great inspiration and has great taste. This is the second time I read that article, except that at this reading years apart from the first, I've delivered many suits and shirts. The article does not resonate with me.

 

As a rule, I do not fit jackets to the shirt the customer is wearing. Shirts are cheap; it would be ridiculous for me to fit an expensive jacket to a shirt. The shirt should follow the jacket, not the other way around. Have you seen some of the shirts customers wear?

 

Second, how much the cuffs show is not determined by the sleeve length. It is determined by the cuff circumference. When the arms are relaxed and hanging straight down, the cuffs are NOT, NOT, NEVER suspended from the sleeves. The cuffs are resting on the hand. They are resting there -- supported from beneath -- because the cuffs are narrower than the hand. The cuffs are not at that level because the sleeves are preventing them from going down further. There is always reserve length in the sleeves which manifests itself as a sort bellowing when the arm is suspended that way.

 

Third, I do not care much about how much cuff peeks out. This whole cuff peeking out is a very GQesque / Saks Fifth Avenue / MTM sort of preoccupation since it is something they can actually adjust (they can't adjust much, not the fundamental things anyway, being MTM/RTW). As you can imagine, there are very specific reasons why I don't care much for how much cuff is showing, but that is another story.

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Second, how much the cuffs show is not determined by the sleeve length. It is determined by the cuff circumference. When the arms are relaxed and hanging straight down, the cuffs are NOT, NOT, NEVER suspended from the sleeves. The cuffs are resting on the hand. They are resting there -- supported from beneath -- because the cuffs are narrower than the hand. The cuffs are not at that level because the sleeves are preventing them from going down further. There is always reserve length in the sleeves which manifests itself as a sort bellowing when the arm is suspended that way.

 

 

 

I agree with this, but I don't think Alden says that how much cuff showing is determinant on sleeve length.

 

He wrote: 'To make matters worse most MTMers do not even notice the shiny Audemar Piggy that weighs in at half a ton on your wrist. The wrist measures must be taken with the Piggy on the wrist and enough fabric provided on the shirt cuff to allow it to be buttoned firmly at the proper and never changing position your tailor will love you for.'

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Went to fit the Made In Italy linen shirt I measured with K by KS. Fit was too tight at the chest, armholes quite high as usual and the shirring at the shoulders have a puffy effect.

 

The sloping shoulders and arm lenght is well accounted for. One piece collar is soft fused and button down roll seems "stiff".

 

Will take photos once they have made alterations.

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hi guys ive been lurking in this forum for a few days now and really interesting to read up this shirting thread since the first post. 

 

i had my first suit made 2 years ago by ALT after reading the LYN thread and i have the honour to meet up with kotmj and desvaro for one of the fitting sessions. 

 

im currently based in bangkok and after reading this thread, seems like jeremy is impressed with how lala duly make a shirt. So i want to ask the sifus here any of them have experience tailoring in bangkok and which tailor comes recommended.

 

and for sure if i have a chance in future would like to make some shirt with Jeremy~! Cheers !!!

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I don´t understand why do you like unfused collars, they do bubbles and got not a very clean looking.

 

Here Mr. Reagan´s , an icon of elegance for me but with an unfused bubbled  shirt collar not very good looking instead .

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcSm-KAEFFA#t=29

 

An unfused collar cannot delaminate like a fused collar so I don't know what you mean by bubble?  Although I have seen collars where there is too much excess face fabric. 

 

I don't know how you can see the detail on Reagan's collar as the resolution on the video is too low.

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An unfused collar cannot delaminate like a fused collar so I don't know what you mean by bubble?  Although I have seen collars where there is too much excess face fabric. 

 

I don't know how you can see the detail on Reagan's collar as the resolution on the video is too low.

 

 

Because the way it reflects the light it´s mean to be not fused as they can´t be pressed/ironed totally perfect as a fused does. Check how is not flat pressed ,has like " mountains " on it. The side  effect of an unfused collar.

 

Things of obsessive compulsive guys about shirts as me  ;)  :P . I am sure Reagan´s shirt was a Jermyn Street one, as he was a Savile man while he was an actor. Still on the 80s those were for real suits and shirts.

 

I have had literally hundreds of shirts since I was a kid, as I always dress in shirts even to be at home, and only one, my favorite soft flannel one for Winter use as a Pijama , delaminates way after the flannel teared appart on the neck area and wore, that shirt has been abused at home for years.

 

If you wash carefully with delicate detergent as my mother always did and iron them not burning, a well  fused shirt won≠t delaminate,  the full shirt will be wore way before.

 

That is my experience, but would like to know others to see.


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